I have copied paste the most noticeable that caught my attention from this site with the above link and also have a link at the end to a major rebuttal to Mr Jerry Lembcke by Mr Jim Lendgren, after the jump break
from the DEBUNKING corner
The MYTH people say this urban legend started in the 1980s?
Hmm this article, from the Reno Evening Gazette was published June 9, 1971
Courtesy of SBD who originally posted it on this thread
if link broken...thumbnail added, please click to view...
transcribed...para 1,2
| Quote: |
“How’s it feel to be a murderer?” asked the faculty advisor of Al Zellar who was mustering out after a year’s infantry service in Vietnam. Jim Minarik, another infantry veteran of that war walked out of doors in his uniform and was twice spat upon, was denied restaurant service, and called a "war criminal” all before he had time to buy a civilian suit. Jim Kerns pulled down a Vietcong flag here and spent nine hours in jail before Judge Halleck dismissed his case. Veterans are advised, one of them said, not to mention Vietnam service when making applications. But it wasn’t these indignities, these evidences of an American world turned upside down that caused some 5000 proud-of their-country former servicemen to organize as Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace. It was the sight and sound of John Kerry, the most publicized sinner since Judas Iscariot, spilling his guts with sickening frequency for the TV cameras. |
last sentence
| Quote: |
| But the Americans we also need to hear from are those who don’t revile and spit on our fighting men, and who in their hearts are ashamed of those who do. |
hmm wonder if Lexis seaches could turn up more articles like this? anyone?
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one of..... We The People
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| Debunker ! The Agony of the U.S. Army By L. JAMES BINDER. New York Times . New York, N.Y.: Nov 30, 1971. pg. 45, 1 pgs Document types: article Dateline: WASHINGTON ISSN/ISBN: 03624331 Text Word Count 885 Abstract (Document Summary)
Take that Mr Jerry Lembcke ... your so-called Urban Myth started around 1980?? hat tip > justoneminute _________________ . ========================================================== More Debunking from ole skerry and the left would of course consider him a reliable source West Wing John Kerry’s chances for the White House BostonPhoenix.com
_________________ . one of..... We The People More Debunking, from the left, no less this from Fonda's lovely site Sir! No. Sir! On that site they have a disclaimer, affirming the Myth of the spitting image. However, they have a data base in their library of more than 650 articles published in the GI press between 1967 and 1973 Quick scan came up with these two references, time stamped in the era The Underground GI Press Duck Power, vol. 1, no. 4 ...from The Bond for April 15, 1969
Dare To Struggle Dare To Struggle, no. 1 date? ed: bizzyblog picked this up & dates it at 1970
links purposefully omitted _________________ a couple more DEBUNKERS - referenced in Lindgren's research in above post... click the thumbnail for a larger image Marines Lose Campus Battle Playground Daily News (Fort Walton Beach, FLA) June 16, 1969  ..an interview with General Chapman of the U.S. Marines, in which he “confirmed stories of physical abuse,” including spitting....... They are trained to suffer this abuse in silence. “Marines are under very strict orders not to react, not to talk back, not to fight back. Just to stand in dignified silence. This is an important article, and there are likely more similiar references. It is reflective of the extraordinary discipline of one with military training. And explains why there may be a dearth of police-blotter-reports of abuse of our military -- they just walked away from such confrontations in dignified silence.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DEBUNKERS The MYTH guys just can't accept the fact that there may be contemporaneous, published articles that discuss incidences of spitting on our Military-- seems police blotter records would be the only thing acceptable to them as evidence . That FBI arrest of a protester in the article upthread doesn't count - so they say I can't recall in which of their articles, who made a point that it wasn't something being discussed in that time period. These following items DEBUNK that theory. People certainly were writing this type of commentary or essay in 1969 & 1971, because is was an already well known issue. click thumbnail to enlarge Sees Need of Respect For Soldier Columbus Evening Dispatch (Ohio) Feb 8, 1969 George Cornell, AP Religion Writer  soldiers treated…like second class citizens hostilities directed at soldiers, they have been spat upon Larry belanger Words and Music Mountainview Democrat (Placerville, CA) Nov 18, 1971  you damn baby-butcher, you deserve the same things you did to those kids in Vietnam _________________---------------------------------------------------- DEBUNKERS More spitting talk going on, in the '60s & '70s No police blotter stuff that those MYTH guys are looking for as proof Does seem odd, though, all these people talking about spitting, or being spit on, in the contemporaneous time period...if it wasn't really happening, and was just a MYTH. Why then would they be talking about it. Seems to me, you needn't be a PhD to figure this out. People were talking about it because it was part of the national conscience. Perhaps the MYTH guys won't accept that, because they do not want it to be true -- they can't deal with the truth it represents -- That a generation of spitters owes a generation of Vets an apology. click the thumbnails... A Sailor’s Open Letter Times Recorder (Zanesville,Ohio) August 16, 1970  Don’t spit on me, attack me, or accost me… Letter to editor by a Kent State senior Chronicle Telegram (Elyria, Ohio) May12,1970  ...guardsmen not to react to spitting, rock-throwing protestors (satire) This one is off the meme of the thread - 'lil extra tidbit Here's the godfather of protesters- role modeling for his throngs - on spitting Demonstrator Plan: Follow 3 Candidates Lima News (Ohio) September 19, 1968  Tom Hayden arrest for spitting on a detective _________________ ============================================
Girl demonstrator Faces Loss of Job Edwardsville Intelligencer (Illinois) July 19, 1971  ...AP story about a Northwestern University student, apparently under surveillance by the FBI for many months, who had been observed spitting on a mid-shipman in uniform. She denied that she had done it shhhh - that MYTH guy said that girls didn't spit _________________ Jim Lindgren March 21, 2008 at 11:19 pm
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CRANE: When I was here in the early '70s, if you went off post in a uniform you were asking for trouble. I was spit on in New York City.
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0004/27/wt.09.html
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Off campus, they faced hostility. Brig. Gen. Keith Walker says he was spit upon when he wore his uniform in New York City. Mr. Barno, the retired three-star general, remembers Syracuse students throwing eggs at him when he visited the school for a football game. Gen. Odierno, who stands a stocky 6’5”, says he tried to avoid wearing military clothing outside school grounds.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204886304574308221927291030
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http://www.salem-news.com/articles/february252008/vietnam_protest_2-25-08.php
I did cherry pick all the comments below, as there was also a number that said they did not experience any problem or hear of other returning vets having any problems. Simpleton
Txantimedia January 17, 2014 11:01 pm (Pacific time)
By now you should know that Lembcke's book has been thoroughly debunked by Jim Lindgren of Volokh Conspiracy. http://www.volokh.com/archives/archive_2007_02_04-2007_02_10.shtml#1170928927
Not only did he find contemporaneous articles of spitting incidents (contra Lembcke's claims) but he also find contemporaneous military regulations proving that returning military personnel did in fact land at San Francisco International Airport (despite Lembcke's claim that this would never have happened.) Furthermore, he proved that Lembcke lied about other things in his book.
It would have been nice if Lembcke had revealed, when he wrote the book, that he was a member of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, the group that lied about what went on in Vietnam.
I also found an admission from an anti-war protestor that he did spit on troops - http://www.dailypundit.com/?p=24230
"Yeah, and although this post doesn’t mention people like me, I was a red-hot leftist (marxist) revolutionary back then, and I did spit on a couple of returning vets. From the safety of a crowd, behind a barricade and a police line.
I was an America-hating asshole and a coward. I’ve learned better, and I’ve learned to feel regret for my shameful actions then. Can’t say the same for the current crowd of shameless, cowardly, America-hating leftist jerks, though."
Not only did he find contemporaneous articles of spitting incidents (contra Lembcke's claims) but he also find contemporaneous military regulations proving that returning military personnel did in fact land at San Francisco International Airport (despite Lembcke's claim that this would never have happened.) Furthermore, he proved that Lembcke lied about other things in his book.
It would have been nice if Lembcke had revealed, when he wrote the book, that he was a member of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, the group that lied about what went on in Vietnam.
I also found an admission from an anti-war protestor that he did spit on troops - http://www.dailypundit.com/?p=24230
"Yeah, and although this post doesn’t mention people like me, I was a red-hot leftist (marxist) revolutionary back then, and I did spit on a couple of returning vets. From the safety of a crowd, behind a barricade and a police line.
I was an America-hating asshole and a coward. I’ve learned better, and I’ve learned to feel regret for my shameful actions then. Can’t say the same for the current crowd of shameless, cowardly, America-hating leftist jerks, though."
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/february252008/vietnam_protest_2-25-08.php
Through your own admission, it sounds like you have had a hard time with your behavior through and through, I stand by this article.
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Jennifer October 11, 2010 4:47 am (Pacific time)
Ia am both a duaghter of and a wife of a Vietnam vet. First I'll tell you that both of them were spat upon. My father, who never talked about the war, only once when I was a child (around 8 years old) spoke to me about his welcome home. He was coming off his plane when a small group of civilians was gathered and was spat upon and called a baby killer. He told me this when I asked him why in my school textbook the Vietnam War was called The Vietnam Conflict. He said because it was an "unpopular" war. I asked what he meant by that. He said a lot of people were against it, and that some protesters of the war even spit on returning veterans. When I asked him if it happened to him, he got very red in the face and looked at me hard and told the story of his return home. His reaction to my question was proof enough for me that he was telling the truth. My husband (who is obviously quite a bit older than me) had a very similar story. Also at the airport, but in his case he broke the spitters jaw before being pulled off the guy by to other returning vets and being quickly dragged away before the cops arrived...I believe him also. Maybe the reason so few vets are coming forward to say they were is because so few of them are willing to talk about how insult was heaped upon injury.
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Wayne Michael January 25, 2010 9:28 pm (Pacific time)
I'm sure someone ran into someone who spit at them but from my experience most of what you have heard or read is a urban legend.When I came back through San Francisco nothing happen all the way back to NYC.A friend who I served with and still a close friend today claims he was hit with a orange that came out of nowhere at LAX,but there was no overt anti-war statement.If anything the silence/apathy towards us Vietnam Veterans was more painfull than any protest would be.But most of us are long over it and have moved on.
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mf0331 January 21, 2009 11:35 am (Pacific time)
I happened on this quite by accident. I am only 45, a Marine machinegunner combat veteran from much later on. My father was a mustang Marine officer who fought in Vietnam as a combat engineer. No one spit at him. BUT: I distinctly remember one of his closest friends showing us his dress blues, which had been ruined by a female college student who had thrown blood on him when he was at her school recruiting as an "officer selection officer." AND I can clearly remember one of my mother's closest friends, whose husband had been killed in action in the Army in Vietnam, telling us about harassing phone calls in the middle of the night. These things aren't made up by "conservatives," they're what happened during that time. Denying it doesn't make it not so. The idea that "Nixon had it done" is foolishness. The anti-war left had people prone to inexcusable excesses, as did the other side. Everyone ought to own up to what they did and didn't so. Semper Fi.
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Ty Cello March 11, 2008 9:25 am (Pacific time)
In the late 1970's a reporter (now deceased) developed a database using law enforcement records compiled by Military Police(MP's), Shore Patrol(SP's) and civilian authorities in Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, and San Diego that reflected civilian attacks on (in uniform) soldiers, sailors, Marines, Air Force and Coast Guard personnel. This was during the Vietnam era and from what I remember, the highest frequency of attacks were in the Bay area, then Seattle, Portland and very few attacks in Sad Diego. I suggest these attacks were something we would now possibly classify as hate attacks. I guess the records this reporter made are lost, but the military never throws away their records, so if someone wanted to review assault incident reports from this time period you could get a more accurate picture of what happened to all of our military not just those returning from Vietnam. Being spit on certainly happened, but it was other criminal behaviors against our military that is the real story. This was a very bad time in our history, and these assaults were and are unforgivable. I put far more trust in a compilation of law enforcement incident reports than I do in individual opinions, for obvious reasons.
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Sawyer Johnson March 8, 2008 11:38 am (Pacific time)
As I posted earlier there are literally millions of stories, because millions served during this war. I also mentioned there are things far worse than being spit on, and that location/timing had a lot to do with one's homecoming reception. I will never forget laying on a litter with an IV in both my arms watching a couple of smashed eggs on our bus window streaking as we picked up speed heading towards Travis. Then for the last 40 or so years hearing all the different versions of what happened in Vietnam (almost always unninformed opinions and historically incorrect facts). It was hard to turn on the television and not see a show where some psychopathic Vietnam veteran was acting out. The Vietnam veteran was mischaracterized then and still is today. Those of you who had uneventful homecomings I am glad for you, those who didn't, I understand. FYI, people you would be utterly surprised how many non-veterans out there pass themselves off as war veterans. We exposed many at one time (happening even now in our current conflict), as did many expose a few who testified before congress with John Kerry. Those of you who may be interested, just go look up "Myths about Vietnam" on the internet and see what you learn. Many of you might be quite surprised, and those of you who have an agenda, well we can only hope you also learn about us combat veterans and who we are. We were the best America has ever had during the military draft periods. By the way, many of these Vietnam veterans were also WWII and Korean War veterans. Big age range people.
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Godsofchaos March 2, 2008 8:02 pm (Pacific time)
Many people on the left want to believe it didn't it happen. Just because it didn't happen in large numbers doesn't mean it that how the vets were treated is justifiable. Check this link out http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=48;t=000368;p=1 This was a debate on the treatment of vets after Vietnam. An example post:"As a "spitee," I just love these attempts to rewrite history. Let's not let these people get away with it. The way returning veterans were treated was disgraceful. I joined in 70 and was a cadet until commissioning in 74, did not go to Vietnam, yet have a barracks bag full of abuse stories. Marching in a Veterans Day parade in NYC; bags of human feces thrown into the formation. Hometown pastor called me aside after a service while on leave, had me kneel down, and asked God to forgive me for being "a mercenary butcher". Direct quote. Went to West Point's away game at Boston College; same weekend as the "peaceful" anti-war riots (are we pretending they didn't happen, too?); physically attacked in a bar by peace activists." Waiting for a plane at SF Airport; had to come to the aid of a kid fresh back from Vietnam who was being physically attacked by "pacifists." Want more? First time back on leave I called the girl I'd been dating for 2 years in high school; parents wouldn't let me speak to her; said they didn't want their daughter associating with "undesirables." I know why people want so badly to rewrite history. Many of them have a hell of a lot they want to pretend did not happen. After I got my appointment, one of the peace-loving hippies in my highschool called me a facist and threw a punch. As fate would have it, after retirement I moved back to my hometown and a couple years later the very same guy moved in across the street. He is now a gung-ho, super patriot (now that he isn't facing the draft) and mortified by how he acted when soldier-bashing was fashionable. I wish spitting was the worst of it. Much prefer that to having to march a mile at rigid attention with some "peace-activist's" shit smeared on me. But I'm not bitter. No, sir. Not after the electro-shock therapy. In fact I feel much better now. Anybody seen my pills?"GI Joe This was a comment made by a Vietnam Veteran. The claim that Hippies didn't spit on them is equivalent to saying that the Holocaust and 9/11 didn't happen.Essentially you are calling vets ,who said hippies spat on them,liars. Hope this isn't too long "man".
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Sawyer Johnson February 26, 2008 6:13 pm (Pacific time)
I was med-e-vaced from Vietnam to Japan and after a few months, flown to the states. Instead of landing at Travis AFB, which was fogged in, they landed us at Oakland Naval Air Station. We were all on litters and hung up in a bus, two high. Three of the wounded on our flight from Japan (Camp Zama Hospital) died during the trip back to the world. They drove us up to Travis AFB to catch connecting hospital charter flights throughout the states, and during that drive our bus was repeatedly hit with eggs. Our bus had several large red crosses on the outside. I never cried the whole time I was in Vietnam (maybe I did, but I try to forget things like that), but this really got to me, even now I get pretty upset. I was never spit on nor even given a bad time from anyone, I'm a pretty good sized guy, so maybe that's part of it. I remember during my first summer home in 1968 near Portland State in the south park blocks a couple of real young privates in Class A's, probably just out of basic training, were walking in the area when probably a dozen scuzzy wimps surrounded them and started cursing, spitting and pushing on them, yes spitting. These kids had not been to Vietnam, but anyone was fair game to these jerks. The short of it, I, and no else came to their aid, so I tuned a couple of them up. The other cowards walked away. This was not a rare event back in those days. I am more inclined to believe a veteran's story than someone who claims something else. No doubt people embellish, but this was a violent time and much violence was directed at the military, and our guys. By the way, Lyndon Johnson was President, so if he had agents of his doing that, then I guess Nixon kept them on the payroll. I believe the real urban legend is that the government hired agents to specifically pick on returning veterans. John Zutz you are 100% right regarding the American Legion and the VFW giving us the cold shoulder. I will tell you this, most of those people who did that did eventually come around and apologize. Give them another chance John, most have learned the truth about us.
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Txantimedia January 17, 2014 11:01 pm (Pacific time)
Txantimedia January 17, 2014 11:01 pm (Pacific time)
By now you should know that Lembcke's book has been thoroughly debunked by Jim Lindgren of Volokh Conspiracy. http://www.volokh.com/archives/archive_2007_02_04-2007_02_10.shtml#1170928927
Not only did he find contemporaneous articles of spitting incidents (contra Lembcke's claims) but he also find contemporaneous military regulations proving that returning military personnel did in fact land at San Francisco International Airport (despite Lembcke's claim that this would never have happened.) Furthermore, he proved that Lembcke lied about other things in his book.
It would have been nice if Lembcke had revealed, when he wrote the book, that he was a member of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, the group that lied about what went on in Vietnam.
I also found an admission from an anti-war protestor that he did spit on troops - http://www.dailypundit.com/?p=24230
"Yeah, and although this post doesn’t mention people like me, I was a red-hot leftist (marxist) revolutionary back then, and I did spit on a couple of returning vets. From the safety of a crowd, behind a barricade and a police line.
I was an America-hating asshole and a coward. I’ve learned better, and I’ve learned to feel regret for my shameful actions then. Can’t say the same for the current crowd of shameless, cowardly, America-hating leftist jerks, though."
Not only did he find contemporaneous articles of spitting incidents (contra Lembcke's claims) but he also find contemporaneous military regulations proving that returning military personnel did in fact land at San Francisco International Airport (despite Lembcke's claim that this would never have happened.) Furthermore, he proved that Lembcke lied about other things in his book.
It would have been nice if Lembcke had revealed, when he wrote the book, that he was a member of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, the group that lied about what went on in Vietnam.
I also found an admission from an anti-war protestor that he did spit on troops - http://www.dailypundit.com/?p=24230
"Yeah, and although this post doesn’t mention people like me, I was a red-hot leftist (marxist) revolutionary back then, and I did spit on a couple of returning vets. From the safety of a crowd, behind a barricade and a police line.
I was an America-hating asshole and a coward. I’ve learned better, and I’ve learned to feel regret for my shameful actions then. Can’t say the same for the current crowd of shameless, cowardly, America-hating leftist jerks, though."
Through your own admission, it sounds like you have had a hard time with your behavior through and through, I stand by this article.
Carolyn December 13, 2014 4:37 pm (Pacific time)
Glad to hear that this book was debunked as false. Unfortunately, the wrong information from this book is still found on sites like Snopes. Contrary to the authors point that returning soldiers didn't go through commercial airports like LAX and SF, they certainly did. Many, like my husband, returned from Vietnam on "chartered" flights like Paper Tiger, and landed in LAX and SF. Vietnam veterans were treated horribly and were spat at and called names. Rewriting history and calling these Vets liars is disgusting.
Jennifer October 11, 2010 4:47 am (Pacific time)
Ia am both a duaghter of and a wife of a Vietnam vet. First I'll tell you that both of them were spat upon. My father, who never talked about the war, only once when I was a child (around 8 years old) spoke to me about his welcome home. He was coming off his plane when a small group of civilians was gathered and was spat upon and called a baby killer. He told me this when I asked him why in my school textbook the Vietnam War was called The Vietnam Conflict. He said because it was an "unpopular" war. I asked what he meant by that. He said a lot of people were against it, and that some protesters of the war even spit on returning veterans. When I asked him if it happened to him, he got very red in the face and looked at me hard and told the story of his return home. His reaction to my question was proof enough for me that he was telling the truth. My husband (who is obviously quite a bit older than me) had a very similar story. Also at the airport, but in his case he broke the spitters jaw before being pulled off the guy by to other returning vets and being quickly dragged away before the cops arrived...I believe him also. Maybe the reason so few vets are coming forward to say they were is because so few of them are willing to talk about how insult was heaped upon injury.
