http://www.care2.com/causes/will-too-much-thinking-make-you-an-atheist.html
Will Too Much Thinking Make You an Atheist?
- by Anna Klenke
- May 2, 2012
- 10:30 am
According to a study published recently in Science journal, analytic thinking may be a threat to religious belief– and provide clues about the relationship between religion and the brain. Religious beliefs are often categorized as intuitive thinking, which is tied to emotions and comes naturally to humans, while problem solving and logic questions are known to involve analytic thinking, which requires more effort and conscious thought.
The researchers from the University of British Columbia in Canada provided test subjects with questions designed to promote analytic thinking processes, then asked questions to discover the strength of their religious beliefs. The results, while subtle, showed that the act of analytic thinking caused a decrease in religious feeling in many people.
Religious belief tied to emotion
While people with strong religious beliefs may insist that nothing could make them waver in their faith in God, it seems that religious belief, like other intuitive thinking, is affected by many different circumstances in our day-to-day lives, including experiences, emotions and intellectual challenges. A person’s faith may change subtly over time — and that isn’t a bad thing, but rather a sign of growth.
Ara Norenzayan, co-author of the study, said: “There’s much more instability to religious belief than we recognize” (CNN Belief Blog). Although the study may not have permanently affected anyone’s religious beliefs, particularly devout worshippers, it does illustrate the differences between analytic and intuitive thinking, and how religion may fit into that dichotomy.
Religious scholars
How do the results of this study fit in with the fact that most historical religious figures were scholars? Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, Saint Teresa of Avila, Gandhi, and dozens of others were rigorously schooled, yet they turned much of their attention towards religious matters.
One religion that seems to bridge the gap between these two modes of thought is Judaism. With its long tradition of intense scholarship tempered with faith, this religion seems to embody the best of both worlds by embracing both analytic and intuitive thinking. Jewish scholars spend lifetimes studying Torah and the Talmud; no one could accuse them of avoiding analytic thought processes. But they are also the embodiment of faith, and it is their religion that calls them to scholarship.
Some people may take this study as yet another opportunity to attack religion and people who worship frequently. They are missing the point. Religion doesn’t make you stupid, and not believing in God doesn’t necessarily make you smarter or more intellectually adept.
What do you think about the relationship between scholarly thought and religious belief? How have these issues affected your own life? Feel free to share in the comments.
Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/will-too-much-thinking-make-you-an-atheist.html#ixzz1uT4uBAtB
Some comments I have added. Apology for not attributing a name to the commentator
Analytical thinking does NOT damage faith itself significantly. Analytical thinking DOES cripple dogma and prejudice, two evils that often infect various religions. Hence a Jewish historian loses no faith as he analyses and thinks about the records of his civilisation. Faiths that survive by dogma, including many current implementations of Islam and Christianity, are 'endangered' and should rightly be deprived of dogma and prejudice, in hopes that they will either develop a spine of truth or be dispersed into more tolerant and less hostile factions of the same core faith.
Analytical thinking should not affect religious belief. If you take analytical thinking far enough you come to the conclusion that there is matter and a set of physical laws that all make sense, and since they exist, who/what created them? Analytically you can say that they've always existed, or intuitively you can say that a higher power (God) created them. Either way you have a "leap of faith" regarding the beginning of the universe.
-
One can believe what they're taught (key word) as children, then study and realize there is more to the story than what they've been taught, begin to think analytically and realize things are much different and far more complicated than they were were led to believe but still understand that something does not come from absolutely nothing...something created everything, whatever it might be. So analyzing doesn't necessarily stop religious belief; the way, degree and type of belief can and does change.To much thinking won't make you an atheist. It will cure you from Biblical literalism, young earth creationism, and the blind faith in what you were told by your parents and your preacher.
There are many critically thinking people who have a deep and sincere faith in God. However, critically thinking people who remain convinced of the fundamentalist dogma they grew up with are very rare. Critically thinking people who convert to some fundamentalist creed are rarer still.I remember reading something a long time ago that made sense to me. There is nothing that scares people more than the unknown and what happens after death is the greatest unknown ever. There have been many Religions and they have changed over time. There were other Religions before the birth of Jesus that went the same way, God’s son was born, he performed miracles, was killed by man and later rose from the dead. Man’s fear leads them to create an answer.
I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church and Baptized in a Methodist Church. Like others I believe in an afterlife. However I NO longer see myself as Religious because Religion today is nothing more than a bunch of control freaks seeking to dictate the laws of man.
I believe in the freedom of Religion but I believe just as strongly in the freedom FROM Religion. Keep YOUR Religion OUT of my Government and I mean MY Government because in America WE are the Government. Remember, OF the people, For the people and “BY the people.”Hmmm interesting article.. I grew up in a southern baptist home. No sex before marriage, spare the rod spoil the child, there was once a time my dad threw a fit at the idea of a woman being a spiritual teacher, had the "you're going to hell" talk lmao..I could go on..I did begin to question my spirituality when I got older and had an athiest stage lol. A little ironic because all of my siblings myself included aren't christian lmao.
I believe as humans we start off on basic consciousness/spritual levels. You've got your rudimentary ways of spiritual thinking like any organized religion out there that will tell you to do good because of moral reasons, or else you will be punished in some way almost the way that you would teach a child about spirituality.. when you begin to think and expand you're spirituality however you start to understand that you should be moral for moral reasons and that the punishment is only there for people that NEED that. In my opinion, thinking EXPANDS your spirituality. There's a great big world out there that just needs to be explored :) that's our purpose. Not to be stuck in one doctrine, but to read it ALL and then pick and choose which truths hold true in your life. Its fun I do it every day :)Analytical thinking can move a person away from belief in monotheistic power figures and their more control-freaking adherents, while leaving undisturbed...but matured...the emotional connection to faith and spirituality.
the title is misleading - it is not what the study is about. analytic thinking is highly based on evidence - and there is no evidence for or against God.
if one grows to need evidence to be able to understand something, one may indeed lose faith, but that is true for all things. one beings to lose faith in love and hope and the like, because those are not things that can be seen with the naked eye, or "proven" either.
i have worked in labs, and have a fairly logical mind. i also have faith in God. if one allows oneself to become unbalanced in thought - too much analytic thought or too much emotional thought - one loses perspective on life and truth.
i see God as very much like love. if you have never been in love, you may doubt its existence and even call it a myth, or a silly idea made up to comfort oneself. once you have fallen in love, there can be no doubt.
there are absolutely things that must be experienced to be understood - love is one of them. God is another.I was raised in a Roman Catholic home. I attended 8 years of a Roman Catholic school. I asked questions for which there often weren’t direct answers. I remember that I first I threw myself into this faith but even as a child found a building set of inconsistencies that would not allow me to square the circle. Apparently, I had attracted attention for this. Our school was visited by a priest not part of our parish. He spoke to our class and I asked a question. He knew me by name. I guess I was already doing too much thinking at an early age. For me the adage that faith is accepting things as true for which there is no proof. And I guess I have trouble with faith. It doesn’t have a good track record. But I perceive myself as a spiritual person thinking person.
I have to agree with that -- I don't believe in religious doctrines, but I believe in God. Emotions tend to trump the gut -- and my belief in God outweighs any "proof" I might need that some sort of higher being actually exists. What about the link between authoritarianism and religion? John Dean wrote a book called "Conservatives Without Conscience" that outlines how the more religious (and often more Republican) and conservative a person is, the more they are looking for someone to tell them what to do. Democrats and people more to the center-left and left are looking for someone who actually knows what they're doing, as opposed to a "father figure."
Modesty?? How do you draw that conclusion. What I read was a good article drawing attention to serious questions.And then asking us all to sound off on what we think. I didn't read any bias.
Unfortunately I do see a deep and serious trend of people who are very poor at thinking logically and are deeply religious. I'm not saying that all deeply religious people have trouble thinking logically. I've known some very intelligent people who are deeply religious. It's just that the greater trend is for those who claim faith can replace logic. That their convictions can allow them to cause harm to others because they have 'faith'.
I firmly believe, from my experience, that no, thinking logically and critically does not make you an atheist. It opens you up to the possibility that God may not exist. Anyone who keeps an open mind and works through the logic of reality must come to the conclusion that God may not exist. But you also must come to the conclusion that God may exist and most forms of religious belief may or may not be reality.
As a logical thinker, who's spent his entire life (yes, entire, I've been reasoning since I was a toddler), questioning and reasoning, I've come to the conclusion that there must be a God. A Creator whom we can't truly comprehend. One whose love is boundless beyond our comprehension. But I must also keep an open mind to all other forms of faith, including atheism. I may be completely wrong and nothing exists beyond physical death. Someday I wiDang, I went on too long .
...... Someday I will see. But for now, everyone should thinking logically and come to the conclusion that their faith may not be 100% correct so therefore they must be tolerant and accepting of other faiths. Fundamentalism is not faith. It is a poor excuse for faith. Our Creator gave us freedom of choice and reasoning. To not use it to blindly believe is not living up to our gifts.
Belief and Faith are not the same thing. As long as Religion is based on "belief" and not faith, there will be disharmony. Love for someone is not belief, it's faith. As long as religions are based on a belief system, they will not stand up. If "religion" is based on Faith, it endures.
In my personal experience "faith" is the ability to believe that which we know not to be true. When one looks at the randomness of the planetary experience and the absurdity of so many of its elements, it seems an extreme conceit to think a humanoid intelligence is behind it all. The things that happen on this planet are no more significant in the course of time than the things that happen on the surface of the sun which is the one object that makes life on this planet possible. The ancients who worshiped the sun as God had it right.
I don't think there is such a thing as "too much thinking" - nor do I think that the quantity of thinking is as important as the quality of thinking. Analytical thought matters, and if it is applied consistently, I do think it puts religious claims to serious doubt.
Many intelligent people who are religious don't apply their critical thinking skills evenly though - they make an exception for their religious beliefs, which are not examined like other claims would be.
I do find though that the more educated a person is, the less likely they are to hold fundamentalist religious views, and it is an extremely rare educated person that would believe, for example, in young earth creationism.
It is, however, quite possible for a very intelligent person to believe in absurd things - because that intelligence often just allows them to come up with more convoluted and complex rationalizations for evidence that seems to go against their belief.
Most religious people, and most people in general, haven't applied critical thought to their core belief system though. It is a human failing that we tend to give a free pass to beliefs we hold, while subjecting beliefs we don't hold to sharp critical scrutiny. We should acknowledge this bias, and work to counter it, by actively subjecting our beliefs to intellectual challenge, and pulling no punches.
I grew up with religion - attended and then taught Sunday school, went to church every Sunday and sang in the church choir. I didn't think about it. It's just what we did. Then I grew up and started to think about it and none of it made sense to me. I consider myself to be agnostic. When I was diagnosed with breast cancer six years ago, I never felt the need to return to church. I found the strength within myself to face the challenges ahead.
Thinking is good, because it makes you question things (by the way, I pity people whose faith is shaken when confronted with some scientific or historical proof that their religion isn't accurate or is just wrong on one topic - in this scenario, there's faith and there's real life and true faith shouldn't be shaken by facts).
I'm from a Roman Catholic family and converted to a super tolerant variety of Protestantism. I still read sacred texts, from all religions, but about two years ago, thoughts and reflexion led me to understand that there's no need to be *afraid*... and I apostasied last year.
I really think that thinking is a clue, but fear is the key. No fears - no need for a comfort blanket of any sort...
“Religion was invented when the 1st con-man met the 1st fool.”
- Mark Twain
“People who believe in talking snakes should be ridiculed.”
-Bill Maher
“I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken-down computers. That is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.” -Stephen Hawking
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men."
-- Voltaire
Aha.... so...
Science is in the search for truth category (of the logically consistent & empirically defensible kind)
Religion is in the search for truthiness category (of the logically rationalizing & empirically imaginative kind)
Dr. Stephen Colbert has already done some extensive research in this area!
The middle ages were not "Dark" ages, but were filled with thinking of far greater rigour than seen today.
This was supported by the universities which were established at the various cathedrals.
Doubting is human - even seeing evidence of the Divine, the Apostles doubted!
First there is no such thing as to much thinking. Religious adherence, and faith are not founded on fact and reality they are founded on belief. One believes because one wants to not because one has any sound reason for the belief. Critical thinking effects religious ideology only when not biased by religious ideology. Religious cherry picking of religious text and dogma requires critical thinking. This is particularly obvious when one considers the "New" Christian stance on slavery, divorce, war, the death penalty, incest, polygamy. The effect of critical unbiased thought on religious attitude is most pronounced when one thinks about the long history of editing the text, to the point of banning entire Books and Gospels from the Bible, and re-interpretation of the message for social, political and monetary power for the religious hierarchy and the Church as Corporate/Political entity. RC priest no longer marry because of greed, monogamy with divorce is the norm due to convenience and the need to keep parishioner numbers up. Not to mention critically thinking about how far religious dogma has moved morality from being ethical behavior, criminalizing sin, abortion-contraception-LGBT rights..., is moving farther and farther from the ethical treatment of others as you demand to be treated.
Faith in God, and following a particular religion are not the same thing. You can have one without the other. The practice of religion without Faith will inevitable lead to a power struggle, a "we vs them" mentality.
If my thinking causes me to become an aethiest, then why did the "creator" give me a brain??
Sometimes desperate people turn to wanting to believe. A close friend very recently lost her son when he committed suicide. I've never seen such grief and desperation. She so desperately wants to believe her son is in heaven, and I think that's her way of trying to survive right now.
Same thing happened to me 2 years ago when my mother died. I've been a non believer since I was a young child, but right after my mother died, and my grief was intolerable, I so desperately wanted to believe there was a heaven.
But very fast the rational me returned, and I realized that what I have now are all the memories, and the realization that I had a wonderful mother who didn't shun me when I eventually told her that religion was just not my thing. In a way her letting me be my own person gave her, and many in my family, the strength to also "come out of the closet".
religious belief and honest thinking are antithetical. religious belief is an irrational atavistic brain adaptation, with its own center of activity in the temporal lobes, probably evolved early on to provide small tribe cohesion during war. "WILL TOO MUCH THINKING MAKE YOU AN AETHIEST"? any thinking will make you an aethiest.
To me religion is a personal thing, it is my relationship to G-d. The things that will lead to atheism is the idiots in the religious roles preaching fire and brimstone. Jesus loved women, he faught for their rights, he represented love! Too many religious leaders teach hate and unbelievable concepts like in todays Care2, to prevent less aggressive boys from becoming Gay break their wrists! I am willing to bet this will lead to more Gays! I grew up before the ecumeniccal council. Catholic priests taught their constituents that the current Jews (including me!) were personally guilty of the death of Jesus. Of course if Jesus were not crucified there would not be christianity!. Jesus was Jewish folks until the very end. So it is not religion that is being attacked by thinking, it is what is taught by crazy leaders of religion whose teachings are affecting how their constituents think about G-d.
It depends on definitions, I guess. Thomas More, in one of his books (Care of the Soul"?) reminds us that the word "believe" is derived from a germanic word meaning "to hold dear." When we use it to refer to convictions that defy reason, we distort. The religious impulses include veneration for cosmic and awesome forces that inspire primal emotions. What has grown up around these impulses -- dogma, mysticism, authoritarianism, ritual enactment of mysteries, law and morality -- are all the varieties of human religious expression understood and practiced through the lenses of our cultures. The growth comes about as each culture, each individual, struggles to integrate what they most dearly hope is true with the expanding universe of what can be known. Without profound humility, this is a source of pain and strife.
7:57am PDT on May 3, 2012
Many of my friends who are very book smart, in all AP classes, do really well in school, are going to IVY's and MIT are religious. But, the thing is, they're not very intuitive. I mean, my good friend, E, can to crazy stuff with chemistry and math, but when it comes to day-to-day analyzing, I can figure out things quicker than she can. So, it's difficult to define intelligence- I have an IQ of 142, she has a 132.... But she gets better grades and takers harder classes than me (but I'm super lazy with school, ha).Anyway, I'm rambling now. She's not some fanatic religious person though, she's very tolerant to others' beliefs.
I consider myself pantheist/agnostic. I have no belief in God but was raised as a Catholic. I used to be so religious. The whole misogynist thing the religion has was what first made me turn away from it all, and then I really began thinking about my beliefs. I realized that I don't believe it. It's a load of hooey. It was scary at first to drop beliefs in God like that, but now I'm very happy and proud to not believe in God or Jesus or whatever. And I am most definitely a deep thinker!
I won't think in your churches if you don't pray in my schools! I think that says it all!
The only time analytical thinking would threaten someone's religious beliefs would be if their religious dogma was hypocritical and counter to the actual Scripture that's the basis of their faith.
This is where a lot of people get lost. They think they are required somehow to believe the dogma in order to believe in a higher power, and that their religion has exclusive rights to the higher power.
The conceits of man are amusing, and are meaningless in the Infinite.
I analyzed this article and came to the conclusion that it is one sided and has put barriers up to take him any further into the topic. An Atheist has limited themselves to to physical matter, something they can touch and see. We don't see air but it is there. We can't see atoms, but, they exist and we have harnessed its power. It takes Faith to go beyond what is thereAbsolutely, since God gave us brains, and the ability to use them, we may become less Religious, following blindly behind Men of God, who have shown over centuries, that they are just that men....But, we may actually become more God fearing, and spiritual. I study, and use the good intellect God gave me, but in looking in the world, it only brings me to one conclusion, although I believe that world and universe has been aroun eons, and that we have evolved, hopefully will continue to, there is a God, and that power which is God, started the whole ball rolling.
We live in a time of great change, social and religious as well as climate. The problem with drawing conclusions from a study like this is in assuming that traditional religion (Christianity as opposed to Buddhism or Hinduism) is somehow eternal and unchanging. Critical thinking does seem to expose the chinks in Catholic and Protestant dogma, and pulls many away from their church. I pulled away from my church the more I learned about mythology, religions and spirituality. On the other hand it has also deepened my awareness of spiritual truths free from the rigid dogmas of the Church.
Devotional religions are in the process of change, opening to new liberal ideals that we associate with atheism, humanism, even science. From an astrological perspective, religions change direction every 2200 years or so. The often imprisoning religions of the Age of Pisces are changing into the spiritual pathways of the incoming Age of Aquarius. The fear and judgments of the Christian Church will either change or the religion will die. Secular liberal ideals will take on more spiritual dimensions in the near future. And this will include a more intellectual and critical mental approach to understanding the nature of God, and of spiritual pathways.
http://www.signsofthetimeshistory.com/
I am a Christian and an educated woman. I was always taught that my intelligence is a gift from God and that I should use it to the best of my ability, and that I ought to analyze and question my own beliefs, even the ones handed to me by the church. True faith permits questioning - if what I believe is true, then I have no reason to fear thinking deeply about it. I think I'm a better Christian for being able to understand and explain the logic behind my beliefs instead of just blindly repeating what someone in a pulpit told me to believe.
If you ask me, it takes much less thought and effort to go, "Oh, there is no God," than to seriously engage with the deep questions.
"We don't see air but it is there."
Air is there and we CAN MEASURE IT. Atoms got "harnessed" because they EXIST!!! "Faith" is proven to be bullshit. FAITH can MOVE MOUNTAINS. Why then do we STILL NEED EARTH MOVING TRACTORS????
If one attempts to think without knowledge about the physical world, one will conclude that everything that happens in the brain is pure mechanical actions of electrons determined by the history of motion and position of every particle. This seems to prove that there is nothing to consciousness and no form of spirit beyond this physical mechanics; what Bakunin called "vile matter".
Then along comes quantum mechanics and with the help of Maxwell's electromagnetic equations that proves that whether an electron will interact when a part of its orbit is subjected to part of another atom is purely probability, that particles conforming to more generalized wave functions and operators prove to us that there is no perfect predictability or destiny constrained by any cause and effect mechanics, and we have a measure of free will that contains something more to consciousness than what is physical. This makes it impossible to dismiss the presence of the soul in sentient creatures. It also deprives us of the certainty of belief of the unknown and forbids us to initiate violence in the name of such invisible things as gods about which we can know nothing.
Analytical thinking leads us to examine, compare and ultimately, dispel the myths humans have created over our history. Once you see how many of them have been "lifted" from other religions and cultures, it becomes amusing--very few are actually "original" and NONE are logical.
Analytical thinking leads us to see that ''gods'' are just tools we've invented in an attempt to control the universe. If we're really GOOD...our big powerful friend will make everything ok for us!
Now---I know many people who think analytically, disregard myths and magic and still believe there's a benevolent force behind the universe.
That's not logical and can't be proven so....if we're honest, we MUST be agnostic at the very least.
Elizabeth S..."If you ask me, it takes much less thought and effort to go, "Oh, there is no God," than to seriously engage with the deep questions."
++++++++++ I couldn't disagree more! I know scores of atheists and ALL of us have come to our rejection of religion after much thought and reflection.
It's EASY to just lay it all on "the wonderful mystery of GOD."
Elizabeth S
"If you ask me, it takes much less thought and effort to go, "Oh, there is no God," than to seriously engage with the deep questions."
I think it takes even more effort and, honestly, intelligence, to check facts and learn from what science is teaching us.
"This seems to prove that there is nothing to consciousness and no form of spirit beyond this physical mechanics"
EXACTLY, there is NO SPIRIT BEYOND!!!!! Inside the brain is as far as it goes. People are a bunch of stupid animals who had some dreams and believed their own bullshit. This all started with some egotistical dudes who thought THEY were the @^. They were CRAZY!
There is enough KNOWN right now that PROVES every last ONE of these religious myths
is based on the POLITICS of the cave men from which they came.
Pam:
"I couldn't disagree more! I know scores of atheists and ALL of us have come to our rejection of religion after much thought and reflection.
It's EASY to just lay it all on "the wonderful mystery of GOD."
I couldn't agree more. It's when I was actually allowed to think for myself, that I realized that science and scientists have so much more to offer, to help me understand all the mysteries of life and the universe.
@ Elizabeth
At first I looked forward with interest in what you might add to the discussion. You began with admitting to being an xtian and educated. I had hoped you would espouse critical thinking but I was immediately disappointed.
You said “True faith permits questioning.”
You don’t need true faith for permission to question. History also shows us that those of faith often did not permit questioning. Your second statement “If what I believe is true.” This is s another error in thinking. Many have believed all manner of things to be true only to discover that what they believed was not true.
You also state “I think I'm a better Christian for being able to understand and explain the logic behind my beliefs instead of just blindly repeating what someone in a pulpit told me to believe.” This statement coupled with the others only shows that you are blindly repeating what someone in the pulpit told you.
Then you really kick into high gear by stating “If you ask me, it takes much less thought and effort to go, "Oh, there is no God," than to seriously engage with the deep questions.”
What a foolish statement that is.
See my next post.
@ Elizabeth continued
I recommend you investigate the large number of very intelligent men and women who are listed as atheists throughout history. Many of these have apparently given far more thought to this than you could possibly have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_atheists
I should have seen it coming. You expressed your description of yourself as an xtian first and educated second. I don’t have a problem with your belief in god or xtianity, as you have a right to hold that belief. But your that it takes less thought to conclude otherwise is insulting.
I also note that you only joined Care2 under this name and picture yesterday. I suspect you are just another narrow minded provocateur haunting the halls of Care2 of late
I submit that in depth analysis doesn't always endanger one's belief in a Higher Power. But what it can do is allow someone (immersed in religion from childhood) to step outside the box, and realize that any particular religion may not be as perfect as he or she once thought. I don't think that realizing there is some good in all religions, is a basis for atheism. Neither do I think that any one particular religion is the be-all, end-all of what's really correct. It may turn out that the Higher Power all religions embrace, is nothing more than the Aetherial reality of the world-wide-web.
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing." - Douglas Adams
Proving involves thinking, evidence, and work of some kind. Faith involves emotions, feelings and is attained even by the simplest mind. That is why Jesus stated, "Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” (Mark 10:15) Also, “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3) Children are gullible and will believe anything you tell them, i.e., the Tooth Fairy, Santa, the Easter Bunny, and Jesus. Jesus rebuked Thomas for demanding evidence of his resurrection and not simply believing the words of others (John 20: 24-29). Most religions resort to this type of mind manipulation because they cannot present evidence, it is a form of brainwashing. I once saw a young girl in utter grief, sobbing uncontrollably, and could not be comforted. I learned that someone had told her that Santa did not exist, and it was as if she had lost an actual loved one. Some might say, how awful that someone told her the truth about Santa. I say, how awful that someone told her the lie in the first place.
Does anyone know that Yeshua bar Yosef (Jesus) left behind a sect known as the Nazarenes (which means truth)? This name, Nazarene, does not come from the town named Nazareth as that town didn’t exist until the 4th Century CE (400 years later). Do we know who was in that sect? Yes. The sect was comprised of Mary Magdalene, Mary, Jesus’s mother, the remaining apostles, with Matthias joining to replace Judas, and Peter of course. Peter tried to let Paul continue with the group but found him too radical in his efforts to cater to the Greeks.
The Nazarene’s held that Jesus was a man, that there was no virgin birth, and no resurrection. This group was eventually excommunicated from the church (3 hundred years later) by the Paulinists (followers of Paul’ writings), who had risen to power in the Roman Empire that ruled from Constantinople, because Rome had been taken over by the barbarians. Paul and the gospeller’s created these myths. If anybody was to be in doubt as to a virgin birth one would think that Mary above all others would be the last word on the issue.
As Phillip reported god says that without faith god is nothing. Get it? Faith created god. If god were god, how could god be nothing if people didn't have faith in god? If that is the only reason god retains gods position, then that is not god.
It all boils down to this really. Most people do not mind or care for that matter who or what you believe in; it is NOT our business to dictate to you. What we DO care about is the way you try to shove those beliefs down our throats and DEMAND that laws be made according to them.
When people start grabbing pregnant women and dragging them to the abortion clinic demanding they get abortion then by means start protesting and I, a very pro choice person will fight at your side. When someone comes to YOUR home or school and demands that you take birth control I will stand by you if you do not want to take birth control. When someone demands that you TURN Gay I will be on YOUR side.
The truth is the people on the right and the Religious Fanatics are bringing this anger on themselves. It is not what you believe or how you want to live that makes us fight but the idea that you want to control OUR lives. We WILL stand by your right to have Freedom OF Religion; shouldn’t YOU stand by us when it comes to Freedom FROM Religion??? Talk to as many as you like but DON’T try to pass laws that removes our rights!!!
faith, like air, can not be seen, only felt...i am educated, analytical, pragmatic and profoundly Christian.. i also don't believe in peer pressure telling me how i must believe in GOD. apparently , now you have to be stupid to have faith...they don't call religion the opium of the masses for nothing...stand up for your beliefs! being educated does NOT make you an atheist.
Carol C., you are correct, being educated does in NO way make you an Atheist but for some being Religious does make you hungry for power. Having been raised a Southern Baptist and baptized in a Methodist Church I do not recall any place in the Bible telling us to change the laws of man, ONLY the hearts of man. Sadly the Religious Fanatics today are doing the opposite and turning people away from the Church. Again I will stand beside you and fight for your freedom of Religion but I will fight YOU when you come after MY rights and the rights of others including the Atheist because unless YOU can walk on water and raise the dead YOU have NO right to dictate to us.
Author Anna: Your aticle, to me, is a good one nad pretty-weoll balanced, but...
You say "Some people may take this study as yet another opportunity to attack religion and people who worship frequently. They are missing the point. Religion doesn’t make you stupid, and not believing in God doesn’t necessarily make you smarter or more intellectually adept."
I completely agree, but your title is terrible! It implies completely the opposite. Please take more care when choosing your titles? Please? ;-)
Far from making an analytical person an atheist ,it is a matter of choice for faith goes beyond that.Our whole existence depends on faith on many things.We first have to believe to have faith and then trust.We have to even beieve in each other at times and then trust as well.Trust is unseen as is faith.It is a decision and choice we make.So,either we believe in and of God or not...a choice or decision we make.That choice is based on much analysing ( understanding) of all in existence including science.Our humanity can be very blind.While we are warned against it,we tend to view Christianity as portrayed by what we see wrong in others.And yet those people are the same as ourselves and just reflect themselves to others.All that does is convince ourselves that God is wrong...sad ! We blame all the wrongs in humanity on God.That is what being anaytical can do...we tend to decide that we are the authority and know it all . The more I think,the more I realise my own shortcomings and the more I have to learn.I understand though that there is far more than I can see and touch and that incudes myself. It is not only the here and now...that is what faith is.
I wonder if this is confusing the" religion"- man made groups which may or may not interpret the Bible correctly or just preacher wannabies from a real spiritual feeling of God?
i consider myself a christian only because I love and beleive in Jesus. I do NOT beleive in the Bible and yes I have studied it and learned from not only priests but top theologians who have interpreted the Bible and its true meanings (I still question it). it is way to human like.
After all this I still think the Bible is hogwash, violent, sexist and cruel and yes it does say that having slaves is permissable. Jesus would NOT approve of any of it.
I had to quickly detach from all relgions and the Bible but still hold on to Jesus the only diety that was really and totally non-biased and full of love only. I also do not critize or preach to anyone my beleifs. I have heard I am a rareity in the christian world. I do not think I am alone in this. i have met others who are more christian than the self proclaimed ones.
Actually, the heading of this topic asks a silly question.There will be many Christians who will contest it.In fact,I believe that deep, honest thinking will include God /Jesus.Too many other conclusions are man made and self apraising.The complexity of science could never happen without a designer for it takes perfection to design so much both of so minute size to immense size and keep it functioning perfectly...at least until man interferes with it.That also includes the non- physical, invisable laws which enable them to exist as well as function..our own bodies too.
I wish there were more people who thought more deeply about the difference between the old and new Testaments.And why they are different.There was a quiet perid of 400 years between the writing of them when nothing was recorded.So many times people quote of things from the old testament as though they are still applicable today....It causes confusion.The period then was the time of law which did and does NOT work.Culture also played a huge part.It still does today too but the Bible has already been written now.I believe in Jesus too and NOT religion.He divides the two testaments.He also divides time.It is so easy to convince oursevles that He does not exist based on human thinking.History records many things and it is faith that causes us to believe they existed.But we struggle to believe in the spiritual.Is that the resut of thinking ? Nope....just choice !
I'm very disappointed with the comments on this research here. For a better rendition of the study and commentary on it, try: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=losing-your-religion-analytic-thinking-can-undermine-belief. Peace.
I was an agnostic. I was not sure GOD existed. But I came to believe in the Bible. This does not mean I am opposed to Science as the article points out many great Scientist were also relgious. The conclusion of the article makes a good point. Analytical thinking does not mean a Christian will give up belief.
But I do believe it will cause a person to think for themselves instead of having a person tell them what to believe or who to vote for. I have read many athiesits who do not give a real arguement against belief in the Bible that just pronouce accusations against it and then dismiss it.
Seventh day Adventist love GOD love his world and all people.
I am a PhD research scientist with over 55 years experience of experimentation and over 100 research publications. I came to know Christ in a personal way in my 40th year and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. I wouldn't change this experience for anything. What I read in the bible completely converges with my scientific knowledge. What I have come to realise in my Christian walk of 35 years is that the bible is absolute truth and Jesus is truly the way truth and life as he claims.
Elizabeth S. "I was always TAUGHT as a child that my intelligence is a gift from god". That about sums it up. You were indoctrinated from age foetus! One can be very intelligent & still be indoctrinated. Such folks just use their intellect in patterns which will serve to verify the beliefs with which they were indoctrinated. In other words, we sometimes see what we want to see and then rationalize it. Just like a mother who denies her child commited a murder, she denies it despite irrefutable proof because she wants to. Otherwise her world would lose meaning and her faith crumble. I know intelligent people who are religious but when you try to debate them on the subject they fall back on "the Bible says" or "I just know", not logic or analytical thought.
Ainsley, again, you are intelligent but your "proof" is that the Bible is absolute truth. As a research scientist you must be aware that proof must be verified otherwise it is just a theory. Therefore, there is a "theory" of religion and a "theory" of atheism. As an atheist, I say I have no proof and I have the courage to admit it. Why don't you? You say you do. What is it? C'mon, your a scientist. Let's see the proof.
Belief is a powerful force and fear is another form of belief. For example, if you have a fear of snakes then you must believe in the ability of a snake to harm you or you would not fear it. If a shepherd cannot get his sheep to follow by faith and trust, he drives them with fear using the dogs. We see this contrast in religions that emphasize either an extreme punishment or an extreme reward, heaven or hell. The word "heretic" originates from the Greek hairetikos meaning `able to choose'. The inherent unprovability and irrationality of religion must FORCE conformity. Whether by laws or violence religion strips you of the freedom to choose in order to subjugate you to it's control. Religion plays on mankind's fear of death and mankind's desire for a better life for themselves and their loved ones. It uses your own emotions and fears to trap you. Before debating with a believer, first ask would they stop believing if you demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no god. If the answer is no then it is futile to talk with them, they are not rational. They are either in faith, believing in a false reward, or in fear, believing in a false punishment. Both faith and fear are forms of belief.
@ Linda M. There is no theory of religion or of Atheism. At best, religions are hypotheses. Atheism is the absence of this. A theory has to have evidence to back it up. All science deals in theories, in that, all theories have evidence, but are falsifiable if better data is found. No scientific postulate is proven, proof id for mathematics. All robust theories have been altered from the original theory, that goes for such theories as gravity, oxidation-reduction, the periodic law, evolution, heliocentrism and plate tectonics. Religions are based on beliefs, not evidence. Atheism is the dis-belief of these beliefs.
Hi William. My apology for misuse of the terminology. I think my point, however, is basically sound. Without proof I cannot argue that my atheism is based on fact any more than a religious person can say their religion is based on fact. The difference is religious zealots KNOW (supposedly) that their beliefs are factual. I at least admit that I cannot make such a claim. That was all I was trying to say.
I believe there is evidence for GOD. But I am not sure this is the site to post or argue it. There are a couple of books by Josh McDowell called Evidence that demands a verdict and More Evidence demands a verdict.
But I will admit I cannot prove the existence of GOD. That is not a problem for me since it took a lot of convincing to get me to admit that GOD could exist and the Bible could be true. There are parts of the Bible that have independent verifiction and there are parts that do not. There are also parts that cannot be verified by any means we have now.
But I can say this a person who says they are a Christian must pass a test to prove it. The test is simple.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Seventh day Adventists love GOD love his world and love all people.
Well Samuel...John 4: 20 is a test for the person who is honest both with himself and God.It is why it is personal decision.It proves nothing for one to say he loves God but does not mean it....except to prove to himself he is a lier.Everyone has to make that choice at some stage.Not to make it is the same as deniance.
THINKING is a GOOD THING. It makes people more compassionate, more empathetic and more in touch with SPIRIT. Thinking can feed the hungry, help the sick and stop violence, all of which we have too much of along with too much religion.
No, there can never be 'too much thinking', but rather only 'too little thinking'.
If one thinks more, plenty of Atheists who 'think more' would more likely become Christians (or have some belief in a higher intelligent power, a 'Prime Creator'.)!!!
Hehehe. Honest! You'll never know till you try.
:D
And it is never fair to make comparisons to folks who are younger or less educated who happen to start out as less informed Christians, any more than those who are younger or less educated who happen to start out as less informed Atheists.
When EVERYONE thinks less, and are neglectful of their minds, everyone courts the disaster of ignorance, whether a non-believer or believer. However, at least believers were already admonished to be thinking believers, not just blind believers, which plague many believers as well as non-believers. Every believer, started out a non-believer. Sadly, many non-believers thinking too little, started out as too little thinking believers, too.
Matthew 22:37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mark 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Luke 10:27: And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Acts 17:11: These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Roman 1:28: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Romans 12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
cont'd from below:
Romans 12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Romans 12:16: Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
2 Corinthians 4:4: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
One simply can never ultimately be WISE, without thinking a lot more rather than thinking a lot less.
Rea8:12pm PDT on May 4, 2012
@ Ron @Stephanie@ Samuel
Sorry, none of that sing song beguiling proselytizing stuff works on me anymore. You folks are so locked into that line of thinking it is sad to observe. There is no god as you understand it. It is obvious that for all your intelligence you have bought into this hook line and sinker. Thus, you have become very creative at defending this with your slight of hand logic about it. Please stop trying to convert people to this. I have heard these solipsisms before. I realize that you are so locked into this that none of us can alter your play. You have chosen this and I can accept that. And you have been less aggressive in your approach to it, but I am done with hearing this same stuff over and over again. And I am preferring not to take you on line by line as I might because you are at least trying to be accommodating but this is rubbish. And has nothing to do with the substance of the article.
@ Linda M. point taken, but the term theory is misused continuously, even by some of those those in science.
@ Matthew R. In a sense, but it would be what type of agnostic? an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist. The point to agnosticism is that of not taking either idea. He just doesn't know.
I am referring to the agnostic atheist who is the disbeliever in that without evidence the atheist position is the default. Since the theist is making the claim of existence, he must provide the evidence.
I know one thing, many people who practice "Churchianity" go to church one day a week, rely on the Pastor's word for gospel truth are lazy. TOO many denominations have created their own doctrines and commandments, becoming legalistic and rigid. It is scary how many feel THEY ONLY have the "Franchise to Salvation' even though they reference the scriptures. These i would say have become slackers in analytic thinking.
It shocks me, also the arrogant right wing money lovers with no respect for the environment, are living for today only in their largese, yet proclaim they are christians. Revelation 11:18 The time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth. (They love money more than God.)
Most people who study theology, not the narrow Christian or Islamic theology, but the overall study of religion, find their faith changed. It is only natural if you gain a wider view. Unfortunately so few are exposed to that wider view, and hold steadfastly to their narrow world view.
Carol C., you don't seem to know who you're quoting, are you for or against religious belief? Here is the quote in context, "Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. IT IS THE OPIUM OF THE PEOPLE.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo." - Karl Marx
Lenin also alluded to Marx's comment, "Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man."
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." - Napoleon Bonaparte
What seems to me like an important element of context about this study is the way Christian churches in America have so many contradictions between their behavior and their ideas, as well as contradictions between dogma and reality. Creationism seriously weakens a church's credibility and that is something that doesn't stand up to analytical thinking. Neither does the hypocrisy of preaching compassion and kindness to the poor and disadvantaged, then openly stating "greed is good" and encouraging cutthroat competition, social Darwinist ideas.
Hypocrisy doesn't stand up well to analytical thinking. People who want the world to make sense and their moral system to be coherent have a hard time finding religious institutions that practice what they preach - in this time and place.
Bringing up Judaism is a good point - because it doesn't discourage scholars, it may stand up a lot better to analytical thinking than fundamentalist Christianity.
Religions that don't make flat-earth claims and whose authorities aren't hypocritical probably have a lot less of a problem with members losing faith the more they think and observe. Instead, religions and churches that stay oriented to reality and consistent with their beliefs could find analytical thinkers drawn to them.
Read2:17pm PDT on May 7, 2012"God gave us a brain to think with " I couldn't agree more. He also gave us a heart ( spirit) from where our analytical thinking originates .The brain is an amazing organ which is for the control of the body.It responds to the messages it recieves as does the body.What is fed into the body is what it is....as is the spirit too.The two work in tandem but are seperate.If we want to really analyse ourselves,it is about how that works.Thinking is the response to what is fed into the brain.To stop at the physical level is way short of who we are for the spirit is who we REALLY are. Think about that unless thinking makes you deny yourself of the truth and become an atheist
Modesty said "@Shawn, I don't think you have a clue of what you are talking about. I have a graduate degree in the Hebrew Scriptures (from historical perspective) it has ONLY deepened my faith."
Pity that you show no evidence of having learned anything of intellectual value.
Ron G. said ""God gave us a brain to think with " I couldn't agree more. He also gave us a heart ( spirit) from where our analytical thinking originates"
RUBBISH.
The rational does NOT spring from the irrational.
""Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." -- Thomas Jefferson
I have no problem with the point of questioning the existence of GOD. What I have experienced is that many only look at the objections and do actually look at the evidence.
GOD gave us both a brain and emotions they should work together. But the point of the hypocracy of many churches is sadly true.
Samuel sadi "I have no problem with the point of questioning the existence of GOD. What I have experienced is that many only look at the objections and do actually look at the evidence."
And, just where is this empirical evidence?
I, Modesty, am but one of many voices of reason.
While you are entitled to your own opinions, you are NOT entitled to your own "facts."
I rebutted your substitution of articles of faith for facts.
Faith, like opinion, is worth no more than the facts that substantiate it.
BTW, an historical study of Scripture is not the same as a linguistic one, the latter of which is the more important here.
As much as it'd be sooo much fun to join in the taunts and conflicts of this "group" discussion, or get irate at some of the blatant preaching that goes on here, unlike many here I'll try to not divert from the topic at hand. Ahem. The way I see it, is that studying only ONE book is not as scholarly as studying (and attempting to understand) many books. What you as the reader then gets out of it is your own personal opinion, but at least by having devoted time to multiple sources you have gained (I would think) a wider knowledge than by just clinging onto and harbouring one train of thought. So the way I see it is that these people like Luther, Gandhi etc. (and from the way I understand it, Nick Cave as well, who is a very intelligent, well read, and smart individual who yet still devotes himself to the scriptures of the bible in a way to personal understanding and fulfillment) probably reached some personal understanding of the religion they practiced by having broadened their minds with further educating themselves. I would imagine that they perceive their respective religion quite differently compared to the average follower.
No comments:
Post a Comment